Author Topic: Does This Affect You ?  (Read 7219 times)

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Offline Hornets Nest

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Does This Affect You ?
« on: August 17, 2011, 05:01:45 PM »
As you know, AIG is a team of skilled developers of products for FS that we are all happy to give to you completely free of charge.  We also host these forums, as a great resource for all things AI and where other developers like to announce, preview or simply release their own work.

Because we understand how all developers feel, part of our commitment has always been to stamp down on piracy (breach of copyright), so far as we are able.  That makes it particularly disturbing for us when a member of our forums indulges in piracy, so we want to make something very clear.  From now on, total and permanent bans will be applied to any member of AIG forums who:

1.  Uses the work of any AIG team member or AIG forum member as the base for something and then releases at the major libraries or elsewhere under their own name and without the permission of the original author.  In the case of the work of forum members, we will act on request from the forum member affected.

2.  Uploads the work of an AIG team members to any web site as an individual file or as part of a package without the explicit written permission of the original author (or group wide arrangements such as exist currently for WoAI only).

3.  Uploads to AIG forums any work by another author without his or her permission - including works already posted in AIG forums by the original author.  This also includes anybody who persistently posts copyright photos within the forums instead of simply posting links to them.

4.  Encourages people in our forums to illegally exchange files of works from payware authors or is clearly identified as someone posting payware add on files on file sharing sites.

In all cases, the prior permission to be obtained from the original author must be in writing.  Uploading something based on someone else's work and simply giving credit to the original author is not an adequate substitute for seeking the original author's permission.

It's impossible to write something like this without dressing it up in some legalese.  So, to make it simpler, take a repaint by Juergen, make very minor changes to it and upload it to flightsim as your own work and you will be banned from here.  Make a package from AIG team members' work without first getting each person's permission in writing and you will be banned from here.  Take an airport developed by Ray Smith and do the same and you will be banned from here.  Post in AIG forums asking anybody to send you a copy of a payware airport scenery and you will be banned from here.  Does this mean we will act as 'judge, jury and executioner' ?  Yes, these are our forums.

We very much appreciate that 99.9% of our forum members already studiously observe these basic rules.  However, as the many other authors and developers who are members here know, there is way too much of these kinds of activity and we intend to be seen to be doing our part to stop it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 11:40:37 AM by Hornets Nest »
Best regards

Matthew

Offline usflyboi28

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 03:23:20 PM »
You mean like this????   ???   Our 787's  By Maik Voigt?  It's a nice take on our model...we were working very hard to get a PK ready for release for Christmas/New Year.  We sent plenty of emails to hear from him....In the end,nothing.  Seems pretty bold.  It's sad really.
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Offline FMCS

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 03:53:22 PM »
I think there is a difference.. I'm not speaking on behalf of Maik or anyone else here at AIG but from a painters perspective. If Maik had used your PK and then modify it and upload to Avsim then you'd be right.  But, what he did was use the wonderful 787 model that GWAI released and created his own Paintkit for it. This practice is nothing new, in fact Tony Fosler, thankfully,  did this for many of the PAI/ FSP aircraft..

 ;)

Frank

Offline usflyboi28

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 04:32:53 PM »
Hey Frank!!!

   It's been a long time!!  I have to say...I owe alot to you for helping me get started in this great hobby!!  Thanks Again!!  As for the PK...It's not that we don't like the PK but this is just the thing.  We have worked really hard to develop the model and were working to improve and release our paintkit so everyone could use it and it just gets stepped over.  It's not really that differant...I think it's just accepted.  No permission was asked or even sought after.  It just seems pretty bold. It's one thing if a group isn't making models anymore or had any intentions of publishing a paintkit...but to just totally step in and make ones own without any care of the original group/authors permission seems wrong.  I don't know. Maybe it's just me.  But I know how many hours i personally put into that project and to see it just brushed aside is tough to deal with. You know? 

Nothing against Maik or his work...just about the way it was done.

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Gabe
 
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Offline flyingcarpet75

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 05:25:31 PM »
Hey Frank!!!

   It's been a long time!!  I have to say...I owe alot to you for helping me get started in this great hobby!!  Thanks Again!!  As for the PK...It's not that we don't like the PK but this is just the thing.  We have worked really hard to develop the model and were working to improve and release our paintkit so everyone could use it and it just gets stepped over.  It's not really that differant...I think it's just accepted.  No permission was asked or even sought after.  It just seems pretty bold. It's one thing if a group isn't making models anymore or had any intentions of publishing a paintkit...but to just totally step in and make ones own without any care of the original group/authors permission seems wrong.  I don't know. Maybe it's just me.  But I know how many hours i personally put into that project and to see it just brushed aside is tough to deal with. You know? 

Nothing against Maik or his work...just about the way it was done.

Happy Flying!
Gabe
 

In a way, I can understand your feelings, but knowing Maik, I think that you should just take this as a compliment, in the sense that he considered your 787 as a high quality model that he could use. But you can be sure that his pk will never go public or even shared with AIG, so you can safely go ahead and release your own pk. I am sure that you will make many ai painters happy!  ;)

Happy new year!

 ::cheers::

Philippe
Visit my website http://www.flyingcarpet75.com for more repaints!

Offline kaese2002

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 07:29:00 PM »
Hello Frank

For sure i know what many hours of work it is to build a model or a PK. We took nearly 9 month to develope the 757. As you know i´m a detail-freak, sharing this with not to much painters here. But as Phillipe said, i checked your model a lot and decided to start a PK 2 days after you released it. If you compare that to the release of my first paints you can see that i was working about 3 month on the PK.

There were a lot of discussions about Paintkit highjacking in old AIA times where we found out, that a new 100% selfmade PK is totally legal and has nothing to do with copyright violation..

I´m not to be averse to release this PK to the public if the time will show that to many 787 will be delivered.

Greets Maik

Offline usflyboi28

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 09:03:55 PM »
  Flattered we are by the attempt.  It's a great job.  Without a doubt...there is nothing illegal about it.  I think we have ALL learned alot about legalities lately with the ICEAI situation amongst others.  But on the VERY SAME basis as the FS community banding together to stand against that being wrong...so is this.  You can imagine my suprise when I logged on t AVSIM and found an enhanced paintkit and matching files for a model that we hadn't even released on avsim yet.  Again...it all boils down to personal morals and integrity. We very well might have said "sure..make the paintkit"  But without even an email asking permission?  I mean isn't that in the read me file along with an active email address???  Not to mention our emails sent directly to Maik about the file.  :-(  Disappointing to say the least. I am in no way trying to start a fight or blacklist anyone...but what is generally respected as "respect" for other authors is being crossed here. 
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Offline kaese2002

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 08:12:24 AM »
That´s the point...you saw NO enhanced PK...you saw one 100% selfmade...its a totally different thing than somebody changes a window size to a paintkit...that is enhanced...the only thing i did was to export a wireframe from the model.

Offline Target

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 02:12:00 PM »
Maik, he's unhappy about the fact that you made one yourself before they had the chance to present theirs. They would have liked to maybe know that you were working on a PK before they were able to show their final product. I think Globus would have like, as creator of the 787, to also have the honor of being the first of releasing the full product. Now they don't mean that you cannot produce your 100% selfdeveloped PK, just that you maybe told them and maybe gave them the chance as model creator to also release their interpretation of a PK first.

To me it seems that there has been for one a bit of miscommunication and more importantly a misunderstanding maybe in terms of let's say expectations.

What we might learn from this is that while you are not required to ask a modeller for permission to make your own PK, one should maybe develop the courtesy to say "Hey, I am creating a new PK for your model, would you mind me releasing it before your PK/would there be something that you would like to keep the peace" or something like that..

Best regards,

Phil
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der Optimist sieht ein Tunnel und das Licht am Ende
und der Realist, der sieht den Tunnel, das Licht und den kommenden Zug

Offline Globus

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 03:32:25 PM »
Maik, he's unhappy about the fact that you made one yourself before they had the chance to present theirs. They would have liked to maybe know that you were working on a PK before they were able to show their final product. I think Globus would have like, as creator of the 787, to also have the honor of being the first of releasing the full product. Now they don't mean that you cannot produce your 100% selfdeveloped PK, just that you maybe told them and maybe gave them the chance as model creator to also release their interpretation of a PK first.

To me it seems that there has been for one a bit of miscommunication and more importantly a misunderstanding maybe in terms of let's say expectations.

What we might learn from this is that while you are not required to ask a modeller for permission to make your own PK, one should maybe develop the courtesy to say "Hey, I am creating a new PK for your model, would you mind me releasing it before your PK/would there be something that you would like to keep the peace" or something like that..

Best regards,

Phil

I agree 100% with Phil,exactly what we meant,we also sent emails to Maik for "permission" to upload his files to our site as well but we remained without any response,maybe his decision was not to respond but still we don't know what was the reason.away from this issue,our models as well where "stolen" & re-uploaded to sites by individuals in their name without any permission from us,with their attitude & some more issues regarding our models we have came to the conclusion to scrap all new future projects.

Offline Panthera

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 04:25:25 PM »
[.]

our models as well where "stolen" & re-uploaded to sites by individuals in their name without any permission from us,with their attitude & some more issues regarding our models we have came to the conclusion to scrap all new future projects.

Why, if I may ask? I'm only just beginning to understand FS AI, but it seems that many teams decided the same thing for conflict reason.

I understand it's annoying to see your work somewhere else, but isn't stopping a bit of an overshoot? I don't know why you model, but most modelers tend to say they do it for own pleasure. I don't see how that can be spoiled by a pre-released paintkit and package including your model, as it won't affect you in monetary value nor in any other value, except for a few clicks on your site maybe.

Note: I am not affiliated in any way with AIG or any other team or group or whatever they call it on the internetz. Also, its not meant to be offensive, but I am really curious as to the why of this (kind of) decision(s)..

Any now its time to rush of to globusworld to get everything while its still there :reaction:
Regards, Arnout

Offline Globus

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 05:01:16 PM »
[.]

our models as well where "stolen" & re-uploaded to sites by individuals in their name without any permission from us,with their attitude & some more issues regarding our models we have came to the conclusion to scrap all new future projects.

Why, if I may ask? I'm only just beginning to understand FS AI, but it seems that many teams decided the same thing for conflict reason.

I understand it's annoying to see your work somewhere else, but isn't stopping a bit of an overshoot? I don't know why you model, but most modelers tend to say they do it for own pleasure. I don't see how that can be spoiled by a pre-released paintkit and package including your model, as it won't affect you in monetary value nor in any other value, except for a few clicks on your site maybe.

Note: I am not affiliated in any way with AIG or any other team or group or whatever they call it on the internetz. Also, its not meant to be offensive, but I am really curious as to the why of this (kind of) decision(s).

Any now its time to rush of to globusworld to get everything while its still there :reaction:

Hi,
As I said in my previous post,Maik issue is not related by our decision,other person/s they had uploaded our "models" in their name when the model was not made by them,this have happened 3 times "that we know",also you do not need to rush to our site ,gwai is there to stay we are not stopping producing repaints & flight plans.

Offline windchill

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 06:06:13 PM »
Had the same type of discussion on the AIG Facebook page when the Forum was closed a few months back.

If you are involved in producing something for flight simulator in anyway, you really need to have a thick skin and accept that we live in a world where everything is being made available via the internet.

Your work WILL BE pirated and used and abused without your permission, you cannot stop it.

I paint for my pleasure, and for the benefit of a very small handful of people that appreciate what I do, beyond that, there is no control about who uses my work and how it is used, and I do not care anymore. A few years back I still wanted to fight the freeware crusade, but I saw how this whole situation caused Dave Wilkins to stop all FS activities overnight - it made him physically unwell with the stress.

For all of the packages you are aware of that are pirating your work, there a packages being distributed in places we are not even aware of. Yes, there is the odd idiot who tries to do it at Avsim or Flightsim...but there are file sharing exchanges and repositories all over the internet where it is a product free for all...like I said, if Microsoft, Adobe, VMWare etc cannot keep a control of their software being pirated, how can a freeware FS team?

To the Globusworld team - know that your models, pk's and paints are very very appreciated and valued by the only group of people in the world that know how much time, skill, and dedication it takes to produce what you have produced. Everything else is not worth getting upset about. Look at Maik's PK situation as a compliment, not something negative, because there are many many models out there that are not worth spending the time to make a completely new PK for.

AI Wars is a phrase that is used around here by the long timers, we certainly have seen some interesting times in our history, one reason for the issues is the level of passion we all have around this little hobby of ours. Try not to lose the passion !!

Brian



« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 07:43:46 PM by windchill »


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Offline cattz

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 07:36:43 PM »
I have to agree with Brian. Everything gets pirated - we just have to live with it. With the exception of payware stuff ( the commercial firms making a living out of it), all that we do is free - no payment, rarely thanked for, but we all enjoy what we do and hope others enjoy it also. None of us are out of pocket by someone else claiming work that is not theirs.

Antoine, I would say please reconsider you actions over stopping all future models. If you going to continue paints, FP's etc', what is the difference, they also can/will be pirated.

If we all decided to stop painting, making flight plans, call signs, programmes,  (did I read AIFP has 25,000 lines of code and all given free!!) installers, scenery  ( I dread to think how long some of that stuff takes to make) etc. because someone else wants to claim it as their own, then the whole FS (free) community comes to a grinding halt and that would be a very, very sad day indeed.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 07:41:10 PM by cattz »
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Offline Sloeber

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Re: Does This Affect You ?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 08:51:34 PM »
As a "user" only, I say Amen.
I can hardly imagine the time it costs to build a model from scratch (although some members might "know" me from the Aardvark forum-days), and I've only dabbled in repainting a little bit (3 repaints or so, all obsolete by now), and I've witnessed only the "public" fighting. Sad to see Aardvark go, and EVAI too. Couple of names come to mind too, and it's great to see some of them coming back to the hobby. I surely hope that all can appreciate the hobby again, and can KEEP appreciating it. Physical ailments caused due to stress you get from a hobby is pretty serious, and shows how much your heart is in it.

Sometimes I wish I could be of more help to the great group of enthousiasts around here, and occasionally posting screenshots to show people how their hard work is appreciated by me is only a small way of showing it, and were I able to (timewise/patience-wise) add to all the efforts, I'd probably not be good enough to do so.

Keep enjoying your hobby!
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